Transcript: Introducing Skein and Beaker Stack: Using AI Agent Engineers to Ship SaaS Faster
0:00 Brad people's background does inform their way of thinking and we do know that the llms i mean you can get them to give very different answers if you tell them they are they should approach it from a different perspective
0:33 Scott Hello, everybody, and welcome to this week's episode of How Many CTOs Does it Take? My name is Scott Porat and my trusty co-host,
0:41 Brad Is Brad Hefta-Gaub.
0:43 Scott and he texted me the other day and he said, Scott,
0:46 Scott I have to show you what I've been working on.
0:49 Scott I'm so excited. I was like,
0:51 Scott all right, let's get on and let's get on a call and check it out. I can't wait to see Brad.
0:56 Scott You said you didn't tell me much, so I'm not even going to try and set it up.
1:00 Scott Brad,
1:00 Scott why did you text me? What are you working on? What do you want to share with us?
1:03 Brad OK.
1:04 Brad All right. So I want to start with you and I've been talking about this for a while. I've been really bullish on AI for teams that already have good engineering practices.
1:14 Brad Okay,
1:14 Scott Okay.
1:15 Brad right.
1:15 Brad That's been like I've been pounding that drum forever,
1:19 Brad right?
1:19 Brad What I've been saying is I believe and we've talked about this in past episodes. I believe that smaller and smaller teams are going to be able to do bigger and bigger projects if they've got the K-shaped economy. If they've got best practices from an engineering perspective,
1:35 Brad if they understand how systems work,
1:37 Brad then basically these AI agents and AI software assistants.
1:41 Brad the sense are just like gonna make things happen that's not i've been consistent with that story right
1:45 Scott Yes, you have been indeed.
1:47 Brad okay
1:48 Brad So I decided I needed to put my money where my mouth was, or as the saying goes,
1:53 Brad and put
1:55 Scott I think you meant to say put your tokens where your mouth is.
1:58 Brad my tokens where my mouth is.
2:00 Brad And I've got some charts to show you some token usage.
2:03 Brad But I basically have this thesis that labor costs are dropping.
2:08 Brad That means smaller and smaller teams can build cooler things.
2:11 Brad And so I was like, I need to put this to the test.
2:13 Scott Okay.
2:14 Brad That's the setup.
2:15 Scott All right.
2:16 Brad So let me tell you what I've done.
2:18 Brad So I
2:20 Brad have like a handful of I got like two dozen ideas in my back pocket for little things little little let's call them SaaS apps b2c SaaS apps that I personally wish existed I like I want this thing I want this thing for myself so I said I'm going to put this to the test and I'm going to start to try to I don't know set some audacious goal of I want to ship a new ship a new SaaS app once every six weeks
2:46 Scott Okay.
2:46 Brad Okay, that's my crazy audacious goal I'm going to set for myself.
2:50 Brad And meanwhile,
2:51 Brad you know, I still do my fractional CTO work. I'm basically working more than full time with multiple different clients.
2:57 Brad And so this has got to be stuff that I can get done in a couple hours a day at the most, right?
3:01 Brad What does that mean, right?
3:02 Brad What do I need to make that happen?
3:04 Brad I need really good quality engineering gates.
3:09 Brad Right. I need we've talked about it. I need my CICD.
3:12 Brad I need, you know, automated testing.
3:16 Brad I need I need that just to be able to build software in a high quality way.
3:22 Brad Right.
3:24 Brad I also figured that I needed a whole bunch of features all these things need to have, right? They all need like a landing page with some marketing dribble. They all need signup flows. They all need, you know, like the three different packages of free pro and max,
3:42 Brad you know, and those packages are going to need to have feature metered features that you can like know how much, you know.
3:49 Brad So many, so many AI tokens per month or whatever the heck, right?
3:53 Brad So actually like last November, I kind of said, I'm going to try to build something that will start out as my, my,
4:00 Brad my template,
4:01 Brad right?
4:02 Brad And I worked on it for a couple of days in November and then I put it aside and.
4:07 Brad and stopped working on it but our recent conversations you inspired me to be like this is i need to get my ass off the you know i need to do this right
4:16 Scott Get off the bench and do the game.
4:17 Brad get it get off the bench and into the game so a month ago i hired four ai engineers as in i created four
4:29 Brad AI agent personas and
4:31 Scott Mm-hmm.
4:31 Brad I set on a crash course to finish my template my template I'm going to I'll share my screen here with you guys here let me share my screen my template is called beaker stack
4:46 Brad It's MIT licensed open source. It's on GitHub right now.
4:49 Brad I'm the only one using it, but it has all these things in it. So let me share my screen real quick.
4:54 Scott Do your AI engineers have names?
4:57 Scott Like my friend Eric has an AI agent assistant that he is named Frank.
5:03 Brad As a matter of fact,
5:04 Brad my agents do have a name. Let me show you their name.
5:08 Brad So this is Beaker Stack.
5:11 Brad Um,
5:11 Brad it's ship your SAS faster.
5:15 Brad Uh,
5:15 Brad it's a foundation,
5:16 Brad it's a template that basically has kind of a, all the stuff to do B2C SAS in it.
5:21 Brad Okay.
5:23 Brad Um, it's got.
5:25 Brad a shared website and mobile app it's got full cicd for like preview environments uh staging and production it's got an automatic setup that literally you can just say you fork this template say setup and boom it like you know it's going to ask you a bunch of questions about you know login you know enough enough keys to basically set up the github cicd for like
5:50 Brad like doing aws doing expo all this stuff um and
5:54 Scott Wait, I got
5:54 Brad yeah
5:54 Scott to ask you a question.
5:55 Brad please jump in anytime
5:56 Scott When you said you say setup,
5:58 Scott does that mean like you just go like,
6:00 Scott hey, Siri,
6:00 Scott set up this thing for me or like what's
6:02 Brad it's
6:02 Scott the difference?
6:02 Brad an npm it's an npm command so it's npm run setup and it and it does a full-blown setup and it comes out of the box with all kinds of stuff billing um all the stuff that i knew i needed so it's got like
6:16 Brad It's got support for observability through Sentry.
6:19 Brad It's got email marketing through Kit.
6:23 Brad It's got transactional marketing,
6:25 Brad high quality transactional emails through Resend.
6:29 Brad It's got users.
6:31 Brad And in fact, it's even like here's a here's actually this is the demo site BeakerStack.com.
6:37 Brad And you can see that.
6:41 Brad This kind of has all the stuff that you expect,
6:44 Brad you know,
6:44 Scott Mm
6:44 Brad like, what
6:44 Scott -hmm.
6:44 Brad are my features? Oh,
6:46 Brad I got all these features.
6:47 Brad What's the kind of the CTA?
6:49 Brad What's the billing?
6:50 Brad So here,
6:51 Brad it's got built-in support for Stripe for subscription services.
6:56 Brad You know, you can see it's got feature A and B are not turned on on the free version.
7:00 Brad Feature A gets turned on. And all this is just configurable and the setup wizard will actually ask you a bunch of questions to set.
7:07 Brad set this up and boom,
7:08 Scott And
7:08 Brad get going.
7:08 Scott I would think in 2026, when we're recording this,
7:12 Scott something like this already exists,
7:14 Scott doesn't it? Or is this the first one of its kind?
7:17 Brad Well,
7:17 Brad I'm not going to go so far as to say it's the first one of its kind.
7:19 Brad There certainly are tons of packages out there to get going.
7:23 Brad You know, Next.js is obviously like great for people to get going on it.
7:29 Brad But what I found was none of those packages like
7:32 Brad like had the soup to nuts of what I expect out of a high quality engineering team.
7:39 Brad So in other words, those packages don't come pre-built with like true CICD to let me do, you know, a PR and get an ephemeral environment that I can test, right?
7:52 Brad Or they don't come with like, they don't come with like observability built in.
7:58 Scott Got it.
7:59 Scott So there's these packages that like provide the website and the mobile app software,
8:04 Scott but they don't provide the developer infrastructure around it.
8:07 Brad That's my take on it,
8:09 Scott Got
8:09 Brad right?
8:09 Scott it. Okay, cool.
8:10 Scott Very cool.
8:11 Brad You asked me, like, you know, name my developers.
8:15 Brad So this I'd like you to meet. This is Diego.
8:19 Scott Hi Diego
8:20 Brad Diego started work with me on May 10th.
8:24 Brad And as did May.
8:26 Brad May joined on May 10th as well.
8:29 Brad And Rahul and Sarah.
8:33 Scott Okay.
8:33 Brad And.
8:35 Brad I, you know, this is not, this is not, you know, I'm not going to say this is rocket science.
8:40 Brad I,
8:40 Brad I created these agents, I gave them their soul files,
8:43 Brad which basically describes their, their, their personality,
8:45 Brad how
8:45 Scott They
8:45 Brad they work.
8:46 Scott have soul files?
8:46 Scott They have soul files?
8:48 Brad In this case, that's, that's a pretty standard thing. Now, most, most agent packages, you kind of give them a soul.md and a, and then, you know, that basically kind of points them at the way.
9:01 Brad way they behave right
9:02 Scott Oh,
9:03 Brad so it's
9:03 Scott I've
9:03 Brad a little never bit heard. different yeah
9:04 Scott That's news to me.
9:05 Brad that's pretty standard these days
9:06 Scott That
9:07 Brad right
9:07 Scott is very metaphysical, though we're getting into different territory now.
9:11 Brad yeah you know immediately i basically started i happen to use nano i set them up on nano claw because i liked the nano claw gave me like a better um security profile you know uh it uses one cli to basically keep um
9:27 Brad things like access tokens and things like that are restricted so I can assign Sarah only has access to a GitHub access token, which is her account.
9:38 Brad So she can only do things as Sarah.
9:40 Brad And so literally all of these contributions that she's done, they are attributed to this agent clearly through GitHub.
9:50 Brad So anyway, so that's my team.
9:51 Brad And just to clarify,
9:53 Brad like they help me in all kinds.
9:54 Brad all kinds of ways so like here's an example where i so uh i wanted to make beaker stack easier to use where there's the there's the template stuff and then there's the stuff that's like specific to the app so i i
10:06 Brad used my cursor agent and I strategized and wrote up a feature brief called adopter owned app zones for easier template upgrades.
10:15 Brad So this is me doing the work of I'm describing as a product owner a feature that I want you know and this is this is just normal engineering practices for for teams like that you and I work with for years right so a feature brief was written it includes a business need except
10:32 Brad acceptance criteria,
10:33 Brad a proposed implementation,
10:35 Brad and that was me kind of running my cursor agent to do that.
10:40 Brad But
10:40 Scott Mm-hmm.
10:40 Brad then I ask my team of developers,
10:43 Brad hey,
10:44 Brad please do a tech plan review.
10:49 Brad And so Diego comes in and he's immediately says there's a blocking problem here. The phase order is inverted and he's read through my plan and he's critiquing it.
11:00 Brad Right.
11:01 Brad And then, you know, May comes in.
11:04 Brad She's got a different personality, a different perspective on development,
11:08 Brad and she comes up with similar types of critiques and then unique critiques to her.
11:12 Brad Right.
11:13 Brad And then Rahul came in with his critique.
11:16 Brad I then like, oh,
11:18 Brad sent my agent to kind of fix that and, you know, came up with architecture diagrams.
11:24 Brad So basically this iterative process that I'm kind of blowing through here real quick, this is the kind of stuff that you would expect if you had teams of multiple engineers.
11:33 Scott Mm-hmm.
11:34 Brad And I'm using these AI agents to do the same type of.
11:38 Brad of expected quality work that you would expect from a senior engineer on the team or you know a junior engineer on the team reviewing each other's work right eventually
11:47 Scott Okay
11:48 Brad i was kind of like right around uh uh
11:52 Brad So May 17th, I was like,
11:54 Brad okay,
11:55 Brad these guys have been working for me a week. They've really cranked out the platform here for me,
12:00 Brad but now I need to actually build something with this.
12:03 Brad And by the way, we're recording this on June 3rd, so just over two
12:08 Scott It's relevant.
12:08 Brad weeks ago.
12:10 Brad I said,
12:11 Brad I have an idea for something I want.
12:13 Brad What that is, I'll tell you what that is.
12:15 Brad That is a,
12:16 Brad I want a...
12:18 Brad essentially a shared memory backplane that I can share across not just multiple agents,
12:24 Brad but across all of the different AI tools that I use.
12:27 Brad So I use Cloud,
12:29 Brad I use ChatGPT, I use Cloud Code,
12:31 Brad I use Cursor, I have the agents that are running this different stuff.
12:33 Brad And I want to be able to create essentially a memory backplane that
12:38 Scott Mm
12:38 Brad is
12:38 Scott -hmm.
12:38 Brad served by an MCP server that any of these agents can...
12:42 Brad can can can basically store memories or I can store memories and they'll they're able to use that as a resource to look things up so I don't have to so it's like I don't want to have to tell chat GPT the same thing I just told Claude and I don't want to go tell cursor the same thing I told chat GPT pretty straightforward idea in fact there's a handful of products out there that kind of do this so on May 17th I
13:10 Brad I wrote my initial planning brief.
13:13 Brad Well, to be fair, I used Claude and I said,
13:16 Brad Claude, I want this thing.
13:17 Brad Does such a thing exist?
13:20 Brad I don't think it does.
13:21 Brad Please go do market research for me.
13:24 Brad Here are my expectations for what I want.
13:28 Brad And basically,
13:29 Brad Claude and I wrote up a business plan,
13:32 Brad a technical architecture.
13:34 Brad a competitive analysis and all that started on May 17th basically
13:39 Scott Okay.
13:40 Brad a week later I actually started coding on this project I'm calling it Skane.
13:48 Brad Skane is like a
13:51 Brad Here you go. I'll show you a quick demo.
13:53 Brad So Skain is the thread that connects your AI tools.
13:56 Scott Got it. Like a skein of yarn.
13:57 Brad A Skain of yarn,
13:59 Brad exactly.
14:00 Brad And I wanted it to have a reliable MCP endpoint.
14:04 Brad I wanted to be able to capture from the web, but more importantly, I wanted all my agents to be able to write,
14:09 Brad read and write to it.
14:10 Brad But I really wanted security in this, right?
14:12 Brad So I didn't want,
14:14 Brad I wanted this to be able to, I wanted to be able to control like if I gave access
14:18 Brad access to an agent.
14:19 Brad I could see what its access was.
14:22 Brad I could control its access.
14:23 Brad So for example, I could later edit and go, oh,
14:26 Brad NanoClaw shouldn't be able to write to memory.
14:28 Brad It should only be able to read from it.
14:30 Brad And I wanted to be able to audit,
14:32 Brad what did it do?
14:33 Brad What did it search for?
14:34 Brad What did it capture?
14:35 Brad Did it try to delete something?
14:37 Brad And so that's the thing that doesn't exist out there.
14:40 Brad And that's what I wanted.
14:41 Brad So that's the main thing that this...
14:43 Brad thing Skane does so
14:44 Scott Mm-hmm.
14:45 Brad this is this is literally by the time by the time this I mean this is out there now you Scott you could play with it right now I plan to like you know release it to my friendlies here in the next couple days but certainly by the time this episode comes out get Skane.ai is going to be available and open and anyone will be able to log into it get a free account start using it right away and
15:10 Brad All the upgrade paths are built in.
15:13 Brad And so I literally built that in 10 days of part-time coding with me and my four employees,
15:23 Brad my four agent employees.
15:24 Scott Wow
15:26 Scott I mean, that sounds like an understated wow,
15:28 Scott but like, that's a wow.
15:29 Brad As an example, by the way, I'll show you this real quick. This is kind of just to kind of make the scale of this clear.
15:35 Brad This is my cursor dashboard for the last year.
15:40 Brad And, you know, this is just me in cursor. This doesn't count my agents. And this is kind of like all of the projects that I work on, you know, across my different.
15:51 Brad fractional CTO clients or some of them I write code for them and then my own personal projects and you can see here this is essentially May 17th was when I started doubling down on BeakerStack and May 24th was when I actually started building Skain and so if you look here you can see that you know I was typically doing a couple thousand lines of code a day and
16:15 Scott Mm-hmm.
16:15 Brad then
16:16 Brad And on the 17th, almost 11,000 lines of code,
16:20 Brad 36,000 lines of code,
16:22 Brad 13,000 lines of code,
16:24 Brad 20,000 lines of code.
16:25 Brad My biggest day here, I think, was 38,000 lines of code.
16:30 Brad This is just my contribution, not counting the other four robots.
16:34 Brad I know I'm rambling. I went super fast on all that. But my meta point here is.
16:41 Brad This isn't about vibe coding.
16:43 Brad This is about applying classic engineering best practices and driving that velocity by using AI agents.
16:55 Scott Yeah.
16:55 Scott So many thoughts.
16:57 Scott Here's just the first one, first
16:59 Brad Yeah.
16:59 Scott two.
16:59 Scott First one is I'll go back to wow.
17:01 Scott Like this is just really cool. And it's really amazing you did it because so many people talk about it and you had an idea and you made it happen, which is skein. That's pretty sweet.
17:13 Scott My second comment is this evolution makes a lot of sense to me. And here's what I mean by that.
17:21 Scott The journey that I've been on for say the last six or nine months is
17:26 Scott The upstream part,
17:27 Scott the spec part.
17:28 Scott How do we go from vibe coding to what we've been talking about a spectrum and development or STD?
17:35 Scott Because we're trying to make a system, we're trying to structure that upstream part in order to get better outputs.
17:40 Scott What I'm sensing here is that
17:44 Scott Now, this is also like called the downstream part,
17:47 Scott right,
17:48 Scott which is logical,
17:49 Scott right? It's like, oh, just like we needed to structure the upstream part away from the vibe,
17:53 Scott we need to take the vibe out of vibe coding,
17:55 Scott we need to take like the YOLO out of, you know, building and deploying,
18:01 Scott right?
18:01 Brad And building and deploying.
18:02 Brad Yeah, totally.
18:03 Scott And so that makes a lot of sense to me and it's very exciting.
18:07 Scott The next two things I have are questions.
18:09 Brad Sure, please.
18:10 Scott One is just a...
18:11 Scott Practical question about beaker stack and skein.
18:15 Brad Sure, totally.
18:18 Scott So how do those two things connect,
18:21 Scott right?
18:21 Scott Skein is like this software that's like a shared memory in the cloud somewhere. Maybe it's hosted locally. I don't really know where it is, but it's like the shared memory concept,
18:30 Brad Yeah.
18:30 Scott right?
18:30 Scott But then beaker stack is actually like the business scaffolding around
18:34 Brad Yeah.
18:34 Scott it.
18:34 Scott How do those two parts fit together?
18:36 Brad Yeah,
18:36 Scott Because
18:37 Brad I love it. my Thank
18:37 Scott first
18:37 Brad you.
18:37 Scott question,
18:37 Brad Yeah.
18:38 Scott my second question is, let's just, I don't even know how to ask this. So I'd love to learn more about the scaffolding.
18:45 Scott around your workforce,
18:47 Scott right?
18:47 Brad Yeah.
18:48 Scott How are you running those?
18:50 Brad Okay.
18:51 Brad So I'll start by saying Skain is a cloud hosted.
18:59 Brad You know,
19:00 Brad it's targeted B2C,
19:01 Brad so it's kind of targeting consumers like you and I who maybe are active AI users who are frustrated by the,
19:11 Brad damn it, I just told Claude this,
19:12 Brad why do I have to retail cursor the same thing, right?
19:15 Scott Yep.
19:16 Brad And it's hosted as opposed to being open source for a couple reasons.
19:22 Brad The first one is that...
19:26 Brad You actually need to host it if you want the cloud things like CLAWD and ChatGPT to be able to talk to it.
19:33 Scott Yeah,
19:33 Brad They
19:34 Scott of
19:34 Brad need to be able to hit a thing on the public internet,
19:36 Brad right?
19:37 Scott course.
19:37 Brad So it's very much, it's got all its features, and I kind of rattled off the security features that were important to me.
19:43 Brad But just think of it as just like any other like cloud-hosted SaaS app that, you know, you log into it, you use the software,
19:51 Brad you...
19:53 Brad You know, you pay your monthly fee and it does the service for you.
19:58 Scott But I guess what I'm asking
19:59 Brad is for instance maybe you could put up the screen the free pro max screen for
20:05 Scott Yeah,
20:05 Brad skiing I
20:06 Scott yeah, sure.
20:07 Brad guess
20:07 Scott Yeah.
20:07 Brad what I'm asking is in my mind the way I think about it maybe I'm thinking about it wrong so like skein is one application that does a thing and like beaker stack is a different application that does a different thing how
20:19 Scott Totally, totally.
20:19 Brad do those fit together
20:20 Scott Cool.
20:21 Scott Let me explain that.
20:22 Scott Yeah.
20:22 Scott Awesome.
20:23 Scott So basically,
20:24 Scott scane is a fully deployed.
20:26 Scott deployed application that does all this stuff,
20:30 Scott lets
20:30 Brad Yeah.
20:31 Scott you capture thoughts,
20:32 Scott you know, blah,
20:33 Scott blah, blah.
20:34 Scott I built it on top of
20:38 Scott Beaker Stack.
20:39 Scott So you could think of Beaker Stack as just like any other framework.
20:44 Scott So it's kind of like you could compare it to Django or something like that, right?
20:49 Scott It's an opinionated framework where the opinions that I knew I wanted it to make easy for me were...
21:00 Scott The shape of the features that you're looking at here.
21:03 Brad Mm-hmm.
21:04 Scott So BeakerStack, to answer your question,
21:09 Scott BeakerStack has built into it the idea of multiple payment tiers with different features. They can be arbitrary. These are obviously arbitrary names,
21:21 Scott feature A, feature B.
21:23 Scott Monthly versus annual,
21:25 Scott it's got, you know.
21:27 Scott It's got full flows here.
21:28 Scott So if I basically like, you know, click start, get started with pro,
21:34 Scott I'm going to get sent to a signup funnel that lets me connect to Stripe and buy the pro version.
21:41 Brad So let me, if you can go back to Skain for a second, let me just say this back to you to see if I understand.
21:48 Brad All right. Let's say I wanted to make skein.
21:50 Brad I don't want to make skein. I want to make you're doing balls of yarn.
21:53 Brad I'm going to do rubber band balls.
21:54 Brad So I'm going to do rubber band ball
21:55 Scott Yep.
21:56 Brad dot com.
21:56 Brad OK,
21:57 Brad so I install beaker stack and I'm imagining maybe there's some folder in there called app.
22:02 Scott Yep.
22:02 Brad And that is where I actually stick rubber band ball.
22:06 Scott Yep.
22:06 Brad And then, OK,
22:07 Brad rubber band ball has a bunch of features.
22:09 Brad Well, I just use skein. Right. So skein is in the app folder and then it looks like skein has I'm just counting here. Maybe.
22:14 Brad Maybe 25 different features or
22:16 Scott Yep.
22:16 Brad something right or maybe it's not 25.
22:18 Brad Maybe it's less doesn't matter and
22:21 Brad So I would imagine that
22:25 Brad beaker stack has some sort of
22:29 Brad already built-in way of tracking what kind of account I have and
22:33 Scott Mm-hmm. Yep.
22:34 Brad some sort of manifest where you indicate I've got a pro account which means I get features X Y & Z and I don't get features PD & Q and then
22:43 Brad I guess there must be some library available to the app inside the app folder where I can, maybe
22:50 Scott Yep.
22:50 Brad it's a decorator on a function or I don't know what it is, something that
22:53 Scott Yeah.
22:53 Brad allows me to easily make something available or not available.
22:56 Scott Yep.
22:56 Brad Is that kind of how it works?
22:57 Scott That's exactly right.
22:58 Scott It happens to be, I based it all on React and React Native.
23:03 Scott Another opinionated part of BeakerStack is I wanted the web and the mobile to be able to quick, you know, share same business.
23:10 Scott this logic and so yeah you basically got it exactly right so BeakerStack has a billing module that Skane didn't change at all
23:21 Scott Skein hasn't touched anything out of the package billing.
23:24 Scott All of the stuff for the Skein features are all in app and actually in app adopter. So the adopter component is where you put your you put your custom web pages,
23:36 Scott you put your custom business logic,
23:38 Scott you know, you and and, you know, the features that just work for free out of the box are all this billing stuff.
23:47 Scott accounts you know even other stuff that like I knew from working with you know I've worked with plenty of other you know entrepreneurs who are like I'm gonna I need to build this like you know landing page that that I want to run a marketing campaign against well stuff like this home page is pre-baked SEO optimized right like
24:12 Scott I changed the configuration.
24:14 Scott I rebuild it. It is fully SEO optimized.
24:18 Scott You don't have to figure that out.
24:20 Brad Now, okay,
24:21 Brad now we're talking about like web and mobile apps here, but Skein itself.
24:26 Brad feels a little back-endy to me it doesn't have a user maybe it has a user interface to manage it or something but it's really an api or an mcp server and
24:34 Scott Yep.
24:35 Brad so you just put that in your app adopter folder
24:37 Scott Yeah, in this particular case,
24:39 Scott yeah, totally.
24:40 Scott In this case, it does have an MCP server interface in it.
24:45 Scott I built beaker stack on top of many different services. One of the main services I'm using is
24:52 Scott is super base but
24:53 Brad Mm-hmm.
24:53 Scott it could have been built off of pure aws and and stuff like that but i used super base because it's pretty good hosting and has a bunch of the features that you care about like a real high quality sql database a vector database built-in skein obviously does um
25:15 Scott It supports embeddings so that when you you know, if the thought that you've captured is Scott Porat is the co-host of the How Many CTOs podcast and another thought is Brad Hefta-Gaub is the co-host of the How Many CTOs podcast and Then somebody says well,
25:32 Scott who are the hosts of the of the
25:35 Scott How many CTOs podcast,
25:36 Scott you know, embeddings and vector searches the way that those types of searches
25:41 Brad Mm-hmm.
25:41 Scott work? Well,
25:42 Scott Supabase has built-in vector search,
25:45 Scott so I just had to implement the embeddings feature.
25:49 Scott But yeah, you're right.
25:50 Scott There's, I mean, there is a user interface to it.
25:56 Scott So this is this happens to be the user interface,
25:58 Scott you know, for
25:59 Brad Mm-hmm.
26:00 Scott all these different features that it has, you know, including like my billing setup or,
26:04 Scott you know.
26:07 Scott security oh
26:08 Brad That
26:08 Scott there
26:08 Brad is the, yeah.
26:09 Scott you go something goes wrong every live demo something goes wrong
26:12 Brad Yeah, well,
26:13 Brad this is staging.
26:14 Brad And this is your view as the administrator.
26:17 Brad Is this, I'm sorry, question,
26:18 Brad is this your view as the administrator of get
26:21 Scott this is
26:21 Brad scene?
26:22 Scott my view as a user of
26:23 Brad Okay.
26:23 Scott Skeen yeah
26:24 Brad So I'm getting the vibe of how this works.
26:26 Brad So now my other question was,
26:28 Brad how did you use the word manage, but maybe the word operate is a better word?
26:33 Brad How
26:33 Scott Yeah.
26:33 Brad do you manage and operate your workforce?
26:36 Scott Yeah,
26:36 Scott that's a good question. So like, how do I tell Diego what to do and and all that?
26:42 Brad Yeah.
26:42 Scott Yeah.
26:42 Brad You just put in tickets and GitHub issues and somehow open up Claude and say, did you go work on this? You're like, what did you do?
26:48 Scott Yeah, a little bit. I told you already I use Nanoclaw.
26:53 Scott And Nanoclaw is like.
26:56 Scott open claw um it allows you to set up a bunch of agents um it has a bunch of interfaces on top of it that you can you can talk to them with uh um telegram or you could talk to them through command line you could hook up slack and stuff like that um
27:15 Brad So NanoClaw is a locally hosted LLM.
27:19 Scott No.
27:20 Scott NanoClaw,
27:20 Brad No.
27:20 Scott that's a great, great question.
27:22 Scott So NanoClaw is a locally hosted agent framework,
27:28 Scott and it has the thing that I liked about NanoClaw, so it's similar to OpenClaw, but what I liked about NanoClaw is the agents all get their own Docker image,
27:39 Scott excuse me, their own Docker container. And...
27:44 Scott They and NanoCloth supports,
27:47 Scott uses one CLI, which is a token proxy for.
27:55 Scott agents to talk to external services so in other words so i'll show you this real quick so i
28:02 Brad So it sounds like nano claw is slightly more secure than open claw because
28:07 Scott feel like it's more secure for sure you
28:10 Brad it's
28:10 Scott know sort exactly
28:10 Brad of compartmental containerizing things a little bit better.
28:14 Scott so um this happens to be my docker desktop right running and you can see i got kinds of all kinds of different stuff running in here but you can see
28:22 Scott You can see that this is Diego's, Diego,
28:24 Scott May and Sarah happen to be currently running inside of their their containers.
28:31 Scott Mm So
28:31 Brad -hmm.
28:31 Scott they're they're completely isolated to that space. They can't go outside of that container.
28:37 Scott And that's that's one way I can control them to make sure or control that they don't do.
28:42 Scott They don't have access to my email.
28:44 Scott They don't have access to the rest of my drive.
28:46 Scott They only have access to that container.
28:47 Brad versus open claw which had access to everything and
28:50 Scott Yeah.
28:51 Brad what models are those using are they do you configure them to say use claw or use whatever
28:56 Scott Yeah.
28:57 Scott Yeah, that's a great question. And I'll show you I'll answer that question by kind of showing you my my conversation with them.
29:03 Scott So this is this is my telegram. So I'm often saying things like team,
29:07 Scott please rereview.
29:09 Scott GitHub,
29:09 Scott Skan, AI,
29:10 Scott Pool 119. It includes additional code for admin and to set comps as well as more tests, you know, and
29:16 Brad This
29:17 Scott then.
29:17 Brad is so dystopian, by the way, the fact that you're using telegram to talk to your agents.
29:23 Scott why is that dystopian
29:25 Brad Well, just fast forward to the future where we're in the movie times and we're like in a dystopian future and you're having to use your encrypted messaging app to talk to your AI agents that are controlling the world.
29:36 Brad Please give me more food and water. I'm begging you.
29:40 Scott well yeah so anyway i talked to them i mean this i actually planned to set up slack but i was just so i was making so much progress i didn't need the feature slack but i what i really want is slack
29:50 Scott Slack where I can just have individual like uh you know DM channels with Diego you know a different one with Diego Sarah May and and um Rahul and then and then to team ones and you know stuff like that but basically I assign them GitHub issues
30:04 Scott I asked them to review GitHub pull requests or GitHub issues,
30:08 Scott you know, and they jump on it and, you know, that's how I work with them.
30:13 Brad So can you ask a specific person to do a specific thing like you said team please
30:18 Scott Yeah,
30:18 Brad review.
30:18 Scott yeah, I do.
30:19 Scott Like, so for example,
30:20 Brad Rahul,
30:20 Scott here I
30:20 Brad yeah,
30:21 Brad please.
30:21 Scott said, Rahul, please do a code review of pull 394 upgrade vi test on this repo to address a
30:27 Brad We
30:28 Scott CVE.
30:28 Brad talked about we talked about soul.
30:30 Brad dot md
30:31 Scott Yeah.
30:31 Brad early tell me about raul and sarah and may and diego what who what who are they did
30:39 Scott Yeah, that's a great question.
30:41 Scott I want to so I I'll have to
30:45 Brad you
30:45 Scott pull I'd
30:45 Brad did you
30:45 Scott have to pull
30:46 Brad have
30:46 Scott it up.
30:46 Brad a childhood trauma in their soul
30:48 Scott I didn't necessarily add any childhood trauma,
30:50 Scott but I did give them backstories that.
30:53 Scott I intentionally wanted them to be influenced by the idea of a backstory.
30:57 Scott So I basically wrote up a persona for each of them.
31:03 Scott And so, for example,
31:04 Scott May's persona includes that she got her start in technology in hardware.
31:12 Scott And so for her, the idea of you can't do a patch to hardware,
31:17 Scott so she really leans into correctness and quality,
31:23 Scott basically.
31:24 Scott The backstory I gave Sarah was that she basically was very much got her start in small startups, and so she's kind of got a bias for action.
31:37 Scott Let's not
31:37 Brad Mm
31:37 Scott overcomplicate
31:38 Brad -hmm,
31:38 Scott things,
31:39 Brad mm
31:39 Scott you
31:39 Brad -hmm.
31:39 Scott know.
31:41 Scott uh shippable is good enough kind of kind of perspective for
31:45 Brad Yeah.
31:45 Scott example and so and diego and rule have slightly different backstories and
31:49 Brad Can I just sidebar on those perspectives for a second?
31:51 Scott sure
31:52 Brad We're having this conversation at the company that I work at about velocity related to AI and all this stuff.
31:58 Brad I mean, everybody has everybody's talking about velocity because everybody just wants stuff to go faster. But we're having this conversation about velocity.
32:05 Brad And I was talking to one of our engineering managers.
32:07 Brad And she said something very interesting to me.
32:10 Brad She said, you know.
32:12 Brad I used to work at a defense contractor.
32:14 Brad Like, I feel like we go blazing fast here.
32:17 Scott Yep.
32:18 Brad And I was like, like when you guys are all talking about going faster, faster, faster,
32:22 Brad I'm like, this is I'm already thinking this is madness.
32:27 Brad And I and I I've come I'm more like Sarah, I came from that startup world.
32:31 Brad And so that was a really interesting perspective to me just a moment where I was like, Oh, that is interesting.
32:37 Brad Everybody's bringing their experiences.
32:39 Brad their sole MD file to the table, right?
32:42 Brad And they're bringing different perspectives. And I think it's really fascinating. And I think it's fascinating that you wrote those into those agents as well.
32:50 Scott I'm not 100% certain how much value I'm getting out of that, but my initial thesis was that people's background does inform their way of thinking.
33:04 Brad Absolutely.
33:06 Scott We do know that the LLMs, I mean, you can get them to give very different answers if you tell them they should approach it from a different perspective,
33:16 Scott right?
33:17 Scott It is kind of all about the probability generating machine, but if you preload the probability generating machine to have a bias for one perspective or the other,
33:29 Scott it directs the output.
33:31 Brad I learned about something recently.
33:34 Brad from someone I work with,
33:36 Brad a woman who I'm going to give her a little credit right here,
33:38 Brad Jillian Kando.
33:39 Brad She's one of the directors on our team.
33:41 Brad She taught me about something,
33:43 Brad her pointed me towards something to read called the six thinking hats.
33:47 Brad Are you familiar with this?
33:48 Scott No, it sounds interesting.
33:49 Brad It is interesting. It's a framework.
33:52 Brad I'm not going to relate it exactly perfectly, but basically there's these six thinking hats.
33:57 Brad Each one has a different color and just each one.
33:59 Brad brings a different perspective like the white hat focuses on pure facts the red hat focuses on feelings and intuition the black hat folk is the devil's advocate hat yellow hat the optimism positive hat you know etc and so it's a it's
34:14 Brad It's kind of a tool for like we're having you know when a team is having a conversation like what What color hat do you have on when you're bringing this up?
34:21 Brad And I think it's a tool mostly for getting people to have a little awareness of what they're bringing to the conversation
34:27 Brad but when I think about having these agents like
34:30 Brad what hat you're essentially giving one of those hats to sarah or may or diego or whomever and it's like if you got a team of a bunch of you know red hats which are focused on intuition compared to a team of a bunch of black cats which are focused on skepticism you know what different outcomes are you going to get
34:48 Scott Yeah.
34:49 Brad imagine a little i can imagine when you build the version of um
34:54 Brad Is it artificial?
34:55 Brad Is that how you pronounce it?
34:56 Scott Artificer.
34:56 Brad How you pronounce it?
34:57 Scott Artificer Innovations.
34:59 Brad Artificial intelligence itself could be a beaker stack thing whereby you just slide the dials for what kind of agents you want.
35:08 Scott The question of do different agents with different perspectives,
35:13 Scott does it change the result?
35:17 Scott And I think it does.
35:20 Scott At least so far in my experimentation for the last month at this,
35:24 Scott they definitely come up with different things.
35:28 Scott They come up with a lot of the same things,
35:30 Scott but they come up with different things.
35:32 Brad Yeah.
35:32 Scott And when I can look at essentially the amalgam of all of them and iterate on it, then I feel like I get at least as good of a product as I would if I had four humans.
35:46 Scott trying to wear the same types of hats.
35:48 Brad I was at kind of a meetup seminar kind of thing where someone was talking about the agents they were building.
35:58 Brad I'm not going to be able to relay it perfectly,
36:00 Brad but I think the concept will come across.
36:02 Brad And I also,
36:03 Brad I'll tell you a flaw, not a flaw, but a part I don't understand.
36:07 Brad He said, look,
36:08 Brad I have like a code review agent and I actually have three personas,
36:12 Brad right?
36:12 Brad Like let's just call it the liberal,
36:14 Brad the centrist and the conservative just to.
36:17 Brad Illustrate three and I actually have those agents each do a code review and then I have each do a code review with Gemini OpenAI and Anthropic
36:29 Brad and then so now i have nine code reviews and then i'm not exactly sure how he said the part i didn't understand is how he synthesized them you know one because you got to pick one of those models to synthesize it right um but i thought i just thought that was kind of clever like everything's given as different perspective and you need to kind of like then do them all and but i don't know how the amalgamation part where i don't really synthesize that back into one code review
36:52 Scott I haven't tried to solve that,
36:53 Scott and the reason I haven't tried to solve that is because how would you do it if you had humans?
36:56 Scott human you'd
36:57 Brad Well, you'd just read it and you'd synthesize it in your head.
37:01 Scott let all three people do their reviews now you got like maybe
37:05 Brad All nine people.
37:06 Brad You have all nine people do
37:07 Scott it. you have nine people do their code reviews and you got you know you got um a lot of overlap where they're like plus wanting each other's comments and then you got some unique stuff where like only one of them came up with it
37:20 Brad Right.
37:21 Brad And so, yeah, unless you're, is this, right, I guess the question is, is this a spot that requires a human in the loop or do you just roll the dice with one of the models and say, synthesize all this for me?
37:35 Scott I, okay,
37:36 Scott so that's a great question.
37:37 Scott I'm going to answer that practically for the month I've been doing this.
37:42 Scott So I want to say like a couple things.
37:45 Scott One.
37:46 Scott The first couple days of letting the agents write issues,
37:50 Scott critique each other's plans,
37:53 Scott and then I would say,
37:55 Scott hey, start building it.
37:57 Scott Then they would produce a pull request.
37:59 Scott They would ask each other to do code reviews.
38:01 Scott I would still be like, I would still do a final review and merge it.
38:04 Brad Mm
38:04 Scott OK,
38:05 Brad -hmm.
38:05 Scott first couple of days I did that.
38:06 Scott I then got really excited of like,
38:09 Scott wow,
38:09 Scott this is working. Like, I feel like my human in the loop.
38:12 Scott loop isn't adding that much value so
38:14 Brad Mm-hmm.
38:15 Scott i asked them to work overnight and to only start working once their plan had been approved by everybody on the team and to start working on their pull requests and then do code reviews i told them not to merge anything but i basically gave them i took out myself out of a couple places in the loop
38:38 Brad Mm-hmm.
38:39 Scott And when I woke up in the morning,
38:41 Scott I had like 30 PRs, five of which were usable.
38:48 Brad Hmm.
38:50 Scott And so I was like,
38:52 Scott okay,
38:52 Scott that was a little bit too,
38:53 Scott I didn't get the right guardrails.
38:56 Scott I didn't put the right guardrails in place.
38:58 Scott I have not yet gone back to taking myself out of the loop. I think that's.
39:03 Scott I don't think they're ready for that yet.
39:05 Scott I don't necessarily think it's a problem with the models.
39:08 Scott I think it's a problem with my,
39:10 Scott I haven't given clear enough acceptance criteria for each step along the way.
39:17 Brad Mm-hmm.
39:19 Scott And we talked about this almost we talked about this three or four weeks ago, you and I did, where I told you about one of my engineers that worked for me on one of my teams, and he's gotten he's he's been able to get his agents to have really strong acceptance criteria enough that he's starting to take himself out of the loop on a handful of of human in the loop places.
39:42 Scott That's a kind of a guardrails that's that's a.
39:46 Scott That's a that's a agent guardrails tuning thing.
39:51 Scott Now,
39:51 Brad Mm-hmm.
39:51 Scott what I feel good about is they still have like Beaker stack has literally almost 100 percent code coverage on.
39:59 Brad thing this year it's like 99 statement coverage 95 branch coverage and like 98 function and 99 line coverage it's like very high quality coverage it's got incredibly it's got great integration tests as well and it's got end-to-end tests that test all the features like they literally fires up on web it fires up playwright and does the whole thing right so
40:23 Brad So that's the kind of stuff that are guardrails that I would want for you and me if we were just human developers,
40:29 Brad right?
40:29 Brad Like that's exceptional level of guardrails for human developers.
40:34 Brad So I feel like if I've got the guardrails for the human developers,
40:37 Brad then I should be...
40:40 Brad more confident that i can let the the agents work so long as they can access all those tools um
40:45 Scott Mm-hmm,
40:46 Brad now what i'm not certain of is well here's the other important point i'm i'm not spending a ton on tokens so i have like the max plan on cursor and
40:57 Scott mm-hmm.
40:57 Brad i have the pro plan on clod or something like that so we're basically like
41:04 Brad I mean, those are not cheap,
41:06 Brad but it's less than $400 a month of token spend.
41:12 Scott Mm-hmm.
41:13 Scott That surprises me that it's not using a ton of tokens. Why is that?
41:16 Brad I think that's because I'm still human in the loop.
41:19 Brad I think the way that people are burning through tons of tokens is I think that if I did say to these agents like,
41:26 Brad hey, you're allowed to go wild.
41:30 Brad So long as all the local quality gates pass,
41:33 Brad then I think I would wake up and they'd have 100 PRs and then I would be sort of left with like,
41:42 Brad oh, how many of those do I actually want to merge?
41:46 Scott Well, this is pretty amazing.
41:48 Scott Let me ask one more question about
41:51 Scott beaker stack you built it you've got skein you got beaker stack you built skein on top of it you have this uh useful tool you call it a b2c it is b2c technically it's almost like b2d business to developer because i don't see a lot of people who are ordinary c's using this thing but i could be wrong about that
42:10 Brad Using
42:11 Scott skein
42:11 Brad skein or skeins.
42:12 Brad Yeah,
42:13 Brad sure.
42:13 Brad Yeah,
42:14 Brad it's definitely a power user tool.
42:15 Scott definitely a power user tool but here's my question
42:17 Scott question if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it is there to hear it does it make sound and
42:24 Brad Yeah, sure.
42:25 Scott so you've got this thing does beaker stack have the marketing platform built into it
42:30 Brad Partly. So like I said, Beaker Stack has, it's integrated with Kit so you can do nurture campaigns.
42:39 Brad It's integrated with
42:43 Brad uh it has fully optimized seo so it's you know your landing page um is optimized and it's got you know it's got things like articles and stuff like that so you can kind of do your seo optimization where you write articles about yourself
42:56 Scott Mm
42:57 Brad saying
42:57 Scott -hmm.
42:57 Brad how you're great and you know you get the things to you know the crawlers to find you um i
43:04 Brad This is clearly not launched and it's clearly not it got zero users,
43:08 Brad right?
43:08 Scott Right.
43:09 Brad That's not yet the piece,
43:11 Brad the part of the thesis that I'm trying to test.
43:14 Scott I understand.
43:15 Brad But I think it's a good point. And the and like you and I have talked a little bit about this, which is an idea is only as good as whether it solves a problem for for customers enough that they see value in it.
43:27 Scott Well,
43:27 Scott I'm actually coming at it from a slightly different perspective.
43:30 Scott perspective,
43:30 Scott a little bit more of a
43:32 Scott business business growth perspective which
43:34 Brad Yeah.
43:35 Scott is this i believe this solves a problem for customers but how do you how do we get it in front of those customers right you mentioned seo that's one way to get it in front of them another way to get it in front of them is for diego and may and your other employees to all have linkedin accounts and post articles about what they're doing at work so their social is another way to get in front of customers there's paid is another way to get in front of customers
43:58 Scott And my observation, of course, there's, you know, PR is another way to get in front of customers.
44:05 Scott My observation,
44:06 Scott not about beaker stack or skein,
44:08 Scott it goes all the way back to, you know, way long, just my experience with startups is engineers often see a problem and they go out and fix it.
44:19 Scott And then they don't actually know how to get their.
44:25 Scott solution in front of people who have the problem.
44:28 Brad Totally agree with that.
44:29 Scott You know, there was a time when I made a website about cats work.
44:35 Scott It was successful. It was a successful startup.
44:37 Scott And it made me stop believing that I had any idea about what was or wasn't going to be successful.
44:44 Brad Right.
44:45 Scott Because I was like, look,
44:46 Scott if I could make a website about cats work,
44:48 Scott anything can work,
44:49 Brad Right.
44:49 Scott right?
44:50 Scott And when I would talk to people who are doing startups,
44:54 Scott people would come to me and they'd say, what do you think of this idea?
44:55 Scott idea.
44:56 Scott And I would say, sounds great.
44:57 Scott How are you going to find the customers?
44:59 Scott Who
44:59 Brad Yeah,
44:59 Scott needs
44:59 Brad totally.
45:00 Scott your ball of skein? And how are you going to get in front of them?
45:03 Scott And that to me
45:07 Scott For me personally, that's always been the mystery,
45:09 Scott you
45:09 Brad Well,
45:10 Scott know.
45:10 Brad and I'll say like that's a legit observation and this this episode will come out, you know, a month from now and and we'll find out if any if anybody's using it, you know, three weeks after I launch it.
45:23 Scott Well,
45:23 Scott what you're saying is that wasn't the problem you were trying to solve,
45:26 Scott which I appreciate.
45:28 Scott That's great.
45:29 Brad Well,
45:29 Brad it's not it's not that it's not that I'm saying it's not the problem I was trying to solve.
45:33 Brad I do want people to use Skane and the next six other ideas that I also plan to build.
45:38 Scott Mm
45:38 Brad And
45:38 Scott -hmm.
45:39 Brad so, you know, finding a way to market them, whether that be a combination of social,
45:45 Brad you know, whether that be paid advertising,
45:48 Brad SEO,
45:49 Brad etc.
45:49 Brad That's there's an element of my.
45:53 Brad factory of software projects philosophy
45:55 Scott Yeah.
45:56 Brad that I didn't cover with you today that I
45:59 Scott Yeah.
45:59 Brad do have in the back of my mind or in written documents I plan to
46:04 Scott You
46:04 Brad execute know, against.
46:05 Scott it's like you need to build a bot farm into into a beaker stack so it can go out and vote all your posts.
46:12 Brad Well,
46:12 Brad there are many other...
46:17 Brad tools that I think are needed to operationalize the factory that
46:21 Scott Yeah.
46:22 Brad don't exist in the form that I want.
46:26 Brad And those, therefore,
46:28 Brad they might be other things that the factory builds.
46:30 Scott Yeah.
46:31 Scott I think this is amazing.
46:33 Scott And I think, Brad,
46:34 Scott the most amazing thing about it is that you did it.
46:37 Brad Well,
46:37 Scott as
46:37 Brad thanks.
46:38 Scott engineers we often see the solution to a problem and
46:42 Brad And I feel like that's good enough.
46:44 Brad Identified the solution.
46:45 Scott yeah we're like oh i know i can here's how we would solve that we can here's how we can do that and you know in your head yeah we could build that this is how we would do that blah blah but we never go do it and then there's another thing we do which by the way if i had a nickel for every one of these we start it
47:02 Brad Yeah.
47:02 Scott If I had a nickel for every folder on my laptop of something I started and spent,
47:07 Scott you know, a couple of nights on and then got tired of because it got hard, I'd have a lot of nickels, right?
47:13 Scott We do that. But you actually saw it through and did it,
47:15 Scott which is pretty amazing.
47:16 Brad Yeah,
47:16 Brad I appreciate that.
47:17 Brad One of the things that is driving this is this idea that all those nickels, I want to make it so that I can.
47:26 Brad Come up with the idea,
47:27 Brad fork BeakerStack, run a setup,
47:30 Brad and in the first hour, have the shell of the new app up and running.
47:35 Brad And that's
47:35 Scott Yeah.
47:36 Brad what I did with Skane.
47:37 Brad Like literally from the moment I forked BeakerStack and said running,
47:41 Brad it was 45 minutes later,
47:43 Brad the initial Skane website was up.
47:47 Brad Now, it didn't have any of the features yet.
47:50 Brad But it was up with billing integrated,
47:53 Brad with observability integrated,
47:54 Brad with everything integrated.
47:56 Scott See what I want from Beaker Stack is this.
47:59 Scott I want to be out for a hike in the woods talking with my good friend Brad talking about some idea and be like,
48:05 Scott oh, that would be cool.
48:06 Scott And I want to be able to send an SMS.
48:09 Scott And
48:09 Brad The
48:09 Scott by the
48:09 Brad telegram.
48:09 Scott time we get back to the car,
48:13 Scott it's up and running. It's already spamming the internet with AI posts on Instagram and YouTube and whatever.
48:21 Scott And we got a trillion dollar valuation.
48:23 Brad There is somebody out there called Pulsia AI,
48:26 Brad I think, that is the beginnings of almost trying to do that, where they started with the lead gen sort of like strategy type thing.
48:37 Brad And I don't know how many people have built apps on Pulsia, but this is not a unique idea.
48:44 Brad And I think you're right, there's value in it.
48:46 Scott Well, Brad,
48:46 Scott amazing.
48:47 Scott I think what I'm going to say to all.
48:48 Scott To all of our listeners is do not smash subscribe,
48:51 Scott do not rate and review,
48:52 Scott do not tell all your friends about this. Go straight to beakerstack.com.
48:57 Brad Yeah.
48:58 Scott Actually, go straight to GitHub and give it a star.
49:00 Brad Give it a star and start your own start your own out of the box SAS app.
49:07 Scott Can we put the link in the show notes?
49:09 Brad For sure.
49:09 Brad Link in the show notes.
49:11 Scott All right.
49:12 Scott Brad,
49:12 Scott this is awesome.
49:13 Scott Thanks for reaching out.
49:14 Brad Yeah, it was fun.
49:15 Scott This is the best kind of bonus episode.
49:17 Scott I love it.
49:17 Brad Love it. All right, man.
49:18 Scott Talk
49:18 Brad Nice talking
49:19 Scott soon.
49:19 Brad to you. See you next week.
49:20 Brad This episode of the How Many CTOs Does It Take podcast was produced and edited by Safran Heptakow.
49:26 Brad Our theme song was AI generated by Brad.
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49:49 Brad Thanks for listening.