Fake Profiles, Real Disruption: What AI Is (and Isn't) Doing to Tech Recruiting with Dave Hardwick

0:00 Brad: like it's not like coding in a given programming language where we know this is idiomatic python right there's not idiomatic use of ai right now we're all kind of experimenting with it and trying to figure out what we're going to do with it

0:29 Scott: We cannot have this conversation today without talking about how AI is influencing the whole thing, the interview process,

0:39 the candidates,

0:40 the resumes,

0:41 the resume reviews,

0:42 the take-home projects,

0:44 the whatever.

0:45 What are you seeing out there?

0:46 I mean, AI is, I assume AI is disrupting your world right now, Dave.

0:52 Brad: Yeah.

0:53 Sure,

0:53 disrupting everything.

0:55 But I would also say that most of the things that I've been working with have been positive.

1:04 And I'll talk about a negative, but it's not about AI.

1:07 But the one thing that's happening right now is that the tools that recruiters have been historically using are upgrading significantly through AI.

1:19 Um,

1:19 I've used a speak out product and I've used, I'm currently using a product called juice box that's new on the market and the AI function in searching for people is just astoundingly great.

1:35 It's, it just makes a world of difference in terms of the amount of time you spend trying to find the people in with,

1:43 you know, really minuscule.

1:44 games or features or you know attributes excuse me so that stuff's really great one of the things that's been really challenging over the course of this last year and it's not AI but it's fake profiles and fake candidates and yes it's it's been and the reason why it's such a big deal is that

2:12 Scott: Absolutely.

2:13 Brad: At least when I ran into it back in December,

2:18 January,

2:18 you know, I was spending an inordinate amount of my time looking at a resume,

2:25 going to LinkedIn,

2:27 you know, going down into finding out when the person actually signed up on LinkedIn.

2:33 And, and you would find these people who had just like signed up two months ago,

2:39 right?

2:40 Yet their career and, you know, their education illustrates it's been around for 10 years and that person is probably not real.

2:49 And both Indeed and LinkedIn had to take extra pains to resolve these problems and stuff.

2:56 But I think mostly LinkedIn has,

2:58 and I think mostly Indeed has,

3:00 but I'm certain that people being people, you know, there are new things being developed and stuff that will try to even pass all the filters and stuff.

3:09 That's a problem.

3:11 Scott: Wait, I have to ask a question about this, though.

3:14 Brad: Yeah.

3:14 Scott: Why?

3:16 would somebody create a fake profile?

3:18 What are they trying to accomplish?

3:19 I mean, I can understand creating a fake profile on a dating site or something,

3:23 but like, why would someone want to apply for a job with a fake person?

3:27 Brad: Well,

3:27 I think this process can go further where you're actually like interviewing somebody online or via like team meets or whatever.

3:38 And, you know, they're in this room that looks like a fake room.

3:42 room and they kind of look like the picture but not really on linkedin and um you'll start asking them questions and stuff and then you know they they'll shut down right and i think what it is is it's um

3:59 My guess is that most of it's driven by third-party consulting services and they're trying to utilize their talent to do remote jobs in the U.S.

4:11 Um,

4:12 and at least that's what it looks like to me, but I've never like gone through the whole process because they don't want to waste the time, um,

4:20 to see, kind of see what they're doing and stuff.

4:23 Um,

4:23 but that's, that's my guess. That's, and that's most of the operating other recruiters I've talked to kind of agree with that general kind of what's happening there.

4:34 Scott: Fascinating.

4:35 Dave: Yeah.

4:36 Brad: Yeah.

4:36 Scott: What about with AI, like from a candidate and employer perspective,

4:40 you know, Brad will tell you, hey,

4:42 that's part of his recruiting process now, checking out someone's experience and engineer how they're using those tools,

4:48 et cetera.

4:49 Are you seeing other, you know, hiring companies and managers do that? Are you seeing employees or not employees, but candidates, you know, highlighting that on their resumes?

5:00 Like what's how's that fitting into the mix?

5:01 You

5:02 Brad: know, that's a great question. And the answer is I haven't seen that on resumes and I haven't seen hiring managers ask for it.

5:11 And my hunch as to why hiring managers aren't asking for it is because it's so new and, you know, they would introduce that to the people once they kind of come on board and stuff.

5:27 But I'm anticipating that we're going to start seeing more of that in terms of because in a certain sense, like I don't have a sense that.

5:37 So it's not like there's, we can,

5:39 it's not like coding in a given programming language where we know this is idiomatic Python,

5:44 right?

5:45 There's not idiomatic use of AI right now.

5:47 We're all kind of experimenting with it and trying to figure out what we're going to do with it.

5:51 And probably,

5:52 you know, the big thing is, you know, when you were, if you were to be interviewing somebody about this is how do you go about using it?

6:00 right and then uh and then that's walk through a process for review that stuff it does but to your to your to your question though scott it has shown up in um uh that's the tests where you you hand you say hey solve the following problem and then they'll go and try to do the thing and you can see them doing the cutting and pasting in the taste the in the in the online tools and stuff

6:27 So it is in there,

6:29 it's out there and people are using it.

6:32 But I don't know that we know how to assess for it yet.

6:36 Like how would you assess a candidate based in terms of how they use AI and software engineering practices?

6:43 Or how would you describe

6:44 Scott: Well, yeah.

6:45 Brad: to a recruiter how to assess that?

6:47 Scott: I can tell you how I'd do it, but Brad's been doing it, so I'm curious to hear him.

6:51 So I would actually

6:52 Brad: Okay,

6:52 Scott: tackle

6:52 Brad: yeah,

6:52 Scott: sure. it differently.

6:53 I would say tell me two tools that you've tried.

6:57 Brad: Mm

6:57 Scott: I

6:57 Brad: -hmm.

6:57 Scott: don't care what they are and just compare and contrast them for me.

7:00 So

7:00 Brad: Oh,

7:00 Scott: I'd be

7:01 Brad: great.

7:01 Scott: actually

7:01 Brad: discussing That's good.

7:01 Scott: like we're in this mode of like everyone's trying to figure it out.

7:04 So like,

7:05 Brad: Mm

7:05 Scott: have

7:05 Brad: -hmm.

7:05 Scott: you thought intelligent thinking about it critically?

7:07 Right.

7:09 That's kind of where I'd because it's the curiosity and the exploration that I think is valuable right now.

7:14 I mean, there's value in the effect that people get from it, but this is changing so much that if somebody isn't sort of into it.

7:21 I don't

7:22 Brad: Yeah,

7:22 Scott: know what I'm looking for.

7:23 What are you looking for,

7:24 Brad?

7:24 Brad: I'm swiping that question,

7:26 by the way.

7:26 Dave: Yeah, it's a great question.

7:28 And I sort of like mostly try to talk about like, talk to me about how you use it, why you use it, why you don't use it, what the risks are,

7:36 what tell me what you've tell me some successes you've had. Tell me tell me where, you know, experiences you've had where it clearly didn't work. You know, I just try to get people talking about it.

7:48 Right.

7:48 Brad: Mm-hmm.

7:52 Dave: You know, I think that's a big piece of this. I used to always say like, you know, people would be like, well,

7:57 I've never done that before.

7:58 And it's like, well, look.

7:59 we're doing something new here so nobody on the team has ever done exactly what we're doing here

8:04 Brad: Yep.

8:04 Dave: right

8:05 Brad: Yep.

8:05 Dave: i actually like the idea that you are not afraid to take on something new you know so

8:09 Brad: Right.

8:10 Dave: to me there's there's a there's this balancing of like it's always been a balance of like yeah i want to know what you've done but it's less about what you've done and it's more about how you did it right and what your experience was in doing it

8:24 Brad: Yeah, so it's sort of like the question of bringing new technology into a given software stack,

8:31 software development stack,

8:32 it feels like to me.

8:35 Dave: Yeah.

8:36 Scott: It's not part of our screening right now.

8:40 I think it might be starting in the fall.

8:44 And really, this is the way I think about it is like we have a new tool in our toolbox and nobody's quite sure what it's going to do yet.

8:52 Some people think it's going to eliminate our jobs and some people think it's going to be a nice autocomplete.

9:00 Some people think it's going to be nothing. But I feel very strongly.

9:05 That the engineers who figure out how to use that tool are going to advance further in their career. I've been pushing it really, really hard inside our company Mm to

9:13 Brad: -hmm.

9:13 Scott: get people to use it.

9:16 I mean, it's great that maybe we'll be more productive and get more stuff done,

9:20 but I'm coming at it from a position of like, I feel an obligation to you as the leader of this team to help you in your career.

9:26 Brad: Yeah.

9:26 Scott: And like, I feel like I will be using a disservice to you if I do not create the space for you to learn these tools will be we will become a second rate software team will be a software team that like doesn't have certain keys on the keyboard so we can't use certain functions, right?

9:41 Dave: And I...

9:41 Yeah,

9:42 and I'll tell you, like, that's what the that's what the conversation is happening on the executive level of the team I'm on right now is like,

9:48 hey,

9:49 Brad,

9:49 as a CTO,

9:50 are you making sure that we're not falling behind the curve here?

9:54 like what are like where do you think we need to be here in three months in six months you know and and so very much it's like yeah like this is it's coming there's no stopping this this this wave and so the only question is are you are you going to ride it are you going to be washed under by it and

10:12 Brad: Yep.

10:12 Dave: that's at the enterprise level and the individual level yeah

10:17 Brad: Well, that's probably a good place to stop.

10:20 Dave: This episode of How Many CTOs Does It Take Podcast was edited by Saffron Epigau.

10:25 Our theme song was AI generated by Brad.

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